Faithfullyliven:the podcast
Do you want to learn how to study the Bible? Do you wish you could understand the Bible better? Do you want to know how you can remain faithful to historic Christianity in our contemporary society? Let's take a journey to explore and learn how to be a faithful follower of Christ. Faithfullyliven, the podcast is here to uplift your soul and encourage you to live a life honoring to God
Faithfullyliven:the podcast
Rethinking Race Through a Christian Lens
Monique Duson's incredible journey takes center stage as she shares her transformation from championing critical race theory to embracing a historic Christian worldview. Her personal story of faith began with a simple invitation to a youth group, which led to her co-founding the Center for Biblical Unity. Through her narrative, listeners will uncover how Monique confronted the contradictions between CRT and Christian teachings, sparking her mission for racial healing rooted in scripture.
Through our exploration of critical race theory and Black liberation theology, we address their impact within church communities and broader society. Monique, alongside her ministry partner Krista Bontrager, helps navigate these complex discussions with grace and patience. Join us as we advocate for justice defined by God's standards, challenging cultural interpretations that conflict with biblical teachings.
The Center for Biblical Unity https://www.centerforbiblicalunity.com/
Small Group Curriculum Reconciled: A Biblical Approach to Racial Unity https://www.centerforbiblicalunity.com/reconciled
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealMoniqueD
Podcasts all the things https://www.allthethingsshow.com/ She cohost with Krista Bontrager
Off Code https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSr-7Jtur6g-GxwNzyA572GPpdlsib5j0
She co-host with Kevin Briggins.
Do you want to learn how to study the Bible? Check out the YouTube channel Faithfullyliven youtube.com/@faithfullyliven
Do you want to read about how to live faithfully? Check out the blog http://lyfe102.org
Get a free Road Map to get started learning how to study the Bible https://mailchi.mp/88f9c9405da0/bible-study-road-map
Welcome to Faithfully Living, the Podcast, where we learn how to live for Christ in our daily lives. I'm Dwan, your host, and I would like to invite you on a journey with me to explore and learn how to be a faithful follower of Christ. Hey everyone, welcome to Faithfully Living, the podcast, where we strive to encourage you to live for Christ faithfully. We're offering guidance on how to study the Bible, how to understand the Bible better and how to remain faithful to historic Christianity in a contemporary society. Biblical unity and racial reconciliation these are two powerful ideas. These ideas are they the same? What does the Bible speak about unity in a way that transcends culture, racial lines, and what does it look like to pursue reconciliation according to the pages of the scriptures? I'm excited to bring you this replay of a conversation that I had with Monique Dusson, founder of a ministry called Center for Biblical Unity. She's going to tackle these two ideas of biblical unity versus racial reconciliation. But before we get started, let me just give you a bio on Monique. Like I said, she is the co-founder of a ministry called Center for Biblical Unity. She co-founded it with her ministry partner, krista Bontrager. Their sisterhood in the Lord is the cornerstone of this ministry.
Speaker 1:Monique has a background in social services and children's ministry. She has worked with a diverse array of underserved communities. She has worked as a missionary in South Africa for over four years, serving children and teachers impacted by drugs, violence and trauma. She spent two decades advocating for critical race theory, or CRT, but, through a series of events, began to clearly see the contradictions of CRT with the historic Christian worldview. Monique now is convinced that CRT is not the best way to achieve racial unity and actively speaks out against the use of CRT within the church. Her mission is to promote a vision of racial healing based on the historic Christian view. Monique has appeared on shows such as Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckley, the Lisa Childress podcast and Breakpoint with John Stonestreet. Monique has a BA in Sociology from Biola University and she is working on her MA in Theology. All right, let's dive into this conversation. I'm Omik. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hi Dawn, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming on to talk about race racial reconciliation, but before we get into our topic, I would like to know, or my viewers would like to know- how did you become a follower of Christ?
Speaker 2:Yes, I actually did not grow up in a Christian home. I grew up with a single mom and we just lived our life. I was definitely raised to be pro-Black and all that that entailed, but from a secular point of view. When I was about 15, a friend of mine from school invited me to youth group and I didn't really understand much of what youth group was and just going and being around so many people my own age, um, was one. It was really fun and it really opened my eyes to the fact that church didn't have to look like. Um. You know what I thought church would look like.
Speaker 2:I had gone to church with my grandmother as a young, young child, but you know, since then I hadn't been in church, and so, in going to church with my friend a few times, then the pastor eventually asked if anyone wanted to have their own relationship with Jesus. And there I was and I said yes because the way that it was presented, of God being a father and me not having a father and longing for that, it just to me made sense. I had no idea what I was getting into at the time, what I was saying yes to, but thankfully, you know, and by God's grace, over the years he has, you know, grown me, matured me, taken me down some very you know unique paths. But yes, it all started when I was 16, taking me down some very you know unique paths.
Speaker 1:But yes, it all started when I was 16, about 15 and a half 16. All right, that's great. It's always helpful that you know how that person leads you to somewhere that you would not normally go, and to have a friend with you when you go, that's great. So I know you have a ministry called Center for Biblical Unity that you co-founded with your ministry partner, krista Bontraker, so could you tell us about how and what motivated you to start that ministry?
Speaker 2:Yes, the Center for Biblical Unity. We exist to have biblically-based, christ-centered conversations on race justice and unity, and we started in February of 2020, right before the lockdowns and the Ahmaud Arbery case, breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Everything seemed to happen that year and, gosh, I first felt the Lord put the Center for Biblical Unity on my heart in October, november of 2019. I had no idea what CFBU was or would be. I just had this name. I myself was coming away from a critical race theory worldview and perspective. I upheld critical race theory and social justice for the majority of my life and so, after having a lot of that paradigm broken down, the Center for Biblical Unity and a historic Christian worldview is what was left. And gosh, we were Krista and I were invited to speak at the Women in Apologetics Conference at Biola here in Los Angeles, and they asked us to speak about critical race theory.
Speaker 2:And after our talk, there were so many people who wanted to know more about critical race theory. What was it? You know what was happening to them in their workspaces and all of that. Could this also be attributed to critical race theory? And at the time, krista was just like the Lord has given you. You know this name, and perhaps this name is part of a larger entity where you can help pastors and leaders to understand the issues that come along with critical race theory. And so I completed some paperwork thinking that maybe a couple of times a year, I could help a pastor or a leadership team to understand why accepting ideology like critical race theory into their church community could be detrimental.
Speaker 2:But the Lord again had other plans, and so now Krista and I both are in full-time ministry at the Center for Biblical Unity, and that's just who we are. We want to have biblically-based conversations on race, justice and unity, and those three words encompass many of the social theories we talk a lot about queer theory or child studies, feminist theory. There are other social theories that encompass the term justice or fall under things that could bring disunity, and so how do we keep our unity as a body of believers? So that's who we are. It's what we do all day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've tuned into your family meetings. Sometimes I can't get them like on the day of, but I always try to get the replay afterwards and they're always so informative. You know about the different topics that you've always so informative. You know about the different topics that you've mentioned about race. You know birth theory and all that stuff. Child studies it's very helpful. It's increased my learning in those areas also. So keep it up. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much. Yeah, we really want to make sure that people are equipped first with the word of God. That's our foundation. But then you also have to know your enemy and know what is coming against especially your kids, what could be coming against you in the workforce, and so that's our goal to really empower people to be able to at least have some knowledge of what's happening around them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. So let's define some terms here so we're kind of know what we're talking about. So race, like what would be a definition of race, and then, well, gosh, go ahead. And the other flip side of is how does God look at race?
Speaker 2:Well, let me start with the biblical position first. Biblically, we don't see the concept of race the way that we do in our current culture in the scriptures. In the scriptures we see region of origin, we see ethnicity. But to look at race, as we do in America, according to the five races listed on the, or not the five senses, the five races listed on the Census Bureau website, races would be categories in which different people fall into. However, scripturally, when we look at ethnicity or region of origin, people are considered. At ethnicity or region of origin, people are considered, people are identified is what I'll say by the place that they come from. So in America I would be considered Black, or people would say I am African American. Some people would say African American but I might have a lineage that goes back to Africa, but I also may not. So, looking at me, yes, my darker skin leads me eventually back to Africa. But when I look at my parents, I have a father who is from Port-au-Prince, haiti, and then I have a mom who is from Philadelphia, have a mom who is from Philadelphia. Our racial categories don't necessarily add up to where someone is specifically from all the time.
Speaker 2:Another issue with the idea of race that many critical theorists critical race theorists, especially in social justice warriors or advocates would say is that race is a social construct. I completely believe that. I believe that this idea of race, of attributing skin color to someone's identity, that is something that was made up. It was a social construct and it was used for people to benefit off of white skin being better or lighter skin being better than darker skin. We don't see that in the scriptures.
Speaker 2:In the scriptures, what we see is that this person came from this region and when we are told that someone comes from a specific region, that's usually attached to the understanding of how close was this person in relationship to God or to the covenant? How close or how far away was this person from having a relationship with God. So we see in the book of Ruth we can look at Ruth. Ruth was a Moabitess. She was from the land of Moab. Moab was outside of the covenantal relationship with God. But we see her mother, naomi, who was a Jew, she was a Hebrew and so she was closer to the covenant, she was in the covenant, she was God's chosen people.
Speaker 2:Naomi and her husband actually moved to Moab from the land. I want to say gosh, it was Bethlehem. I could be mistaken. So we see Naomi and her husband actually moving out of God's providential land for his people. So when we hear of ethnicity or region of origin within the scriptures, it lets us know how close or how far someone is to the covenant. Now, when we look at Ruth, ruth then moved into Bethlehem. She went home with Naomi. She was still a Moabite but she came under the laws, traditions, practices, beliefs of the Hebrew people. And so this I would say this is the difference in terminology when we look at race today, the social construct, versus the true and concrete data or definition that we can see in the scriptures, based on someone's region of origin.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that makes sense as far as looking at it in that context, when we look at the Bible and looking where people came from and how they're related to that.
Speaker 2:So that makes sense our modern day concept of race is a social construct.
Speaker 2:When we look at, you know, attributing skin color to a ethnic category, so to speak, or to a group of people.
Speaker 2:You know it is, and it historically has been for the benefit of a structure, a class structure or some kind of systemic structure, but as Christians we don't participate according to that. So, as a Christian, I might be interested in your region of origin, I might be interested in your ethnic background, but I'm not going to classify you according to race necessarily. I would also even probably go beyond that and say that in the New Testament we don't see the concept of race because, as Paul says, there's neither Jew nor Gentile, greek nor Scythian, slave nor free. But you are either in Christ or you are in Adam. These are the new structures that have been set up because of the work of Jesus. So when I am, you know, at church or in a community with believers, what I understand is this person isn't white, black, hispanic, asian, you know whatever, this person is in Christ, and what does it mean to be in Christ and wearing Christ as our new identity?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that does. I'm glad you made that distinction. As far as you know, the Old Testament and the New Testament, as far as you know us being in Christ and then not in Christ. So God doesn't. God sees color because he made up all of us, you know colorful, but he's looking for whether we're with him or we're not with him, as far as you know that distinction?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm so glad that you mentioned the idea of you know skin color and melanin. You know, we see that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, that God was intentional in how he, you know, makes people like no one has been made by accident. And yet, when we read in Acts, it says that from one man God made all the nations. It was in Adam. There was something providentially within Adam that allowed for our skin color, our pigmentation, melanation, melanation I don't even know if that's a word but for our melanin to adapt to the region in which people migrated. And so to to think about skin color, it's really helpful to think of it as an issue of God's providence. That God did not make you know seven different people in the beginning or different ethnic groups in the beginning. No, it was from one man. God made Adam and he made Eve, and within the DNA structure of Adam and Eve laid the possibility and the potential for different skin colors as people migrated. It's definitely a providential component to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that, just you know, takes us back to the. You know the character and attributes of God. It's providence, he's the creator of everything. So, just you know, bringing it all back to who God is and what his purpose is for us yes, all right, so tell us kind of shift. We talked about race. Yes, all right, so tell us kind of shift.
Speaker 2:We talked about race. There's a thing that people are wanting racial reconciliation, and should we be aiming for racial reconciliation? Well, first, what is racial reconciliation? And then, is that, what should we be aiming for? As a people, or believers, I used to uphold the idea of racial reconciliation and as I have seen it, you know, play out from my time of being a racial reconciliation advocate to now stepping away from the racial reconciliation mindset. Racial reconciliation is actually a time or a work that is done to get you know all the people, all the different ethnicities, into the room, to be able to have conversation, usually about grievance, usually about do you understand the history, do you understand? You know why we are upset and offended? And then there is some component that white people need to do to be able to say you know why we are upset and offended. And then there is some component that white people need to do to be able to say you know, please forgive me please best description of reckon of racial reconciliation. That is like playing out in real time. It's a, it's a process of a lot of works.
Speaker 2:Now, when we go to second Corinthians five, we can really see what reconciliation is. And I jumped to 2 Corinthians 5, because that's where many people talk about this idea of reconciliation, racial reconciliation. When Paul says you've been given the ministry of reconciliation, he says we've been given the ministry of reconciliation and we, in our current 2022 context, put racial in front of it. But the context of scripture in which Paul is writing is not about race or ethnicity. The context in which Paul is writing, when you read the entire chapter, is about reconciling sinful hearts to a holy God. That is the reconciliation, the ministry of reconciliation that we've been given, to tell people that there has been a way made back to God. Now here's the thing is that, as we evangelize, this is based off of what is it? Matthew 28, going into all the world as we evangelize, telling people hey, look, a way has been made back to God, you can have your sinful heart reconciled to God. What does John 1 then tell us? John 1, 12 says that those who put their faith in Jesus, those who believed on his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Speaker 2:When we then move to Ephesians 1 and 2, we can see that we are heirs with Jesus, that it was to his good pleasure to adopt us into his family, that the dividing wall of hostility has been broken down. We see language that lets us know that, as believers, we are reconciled together. We have the same father, we have been reconciled into the same family. Does that mean that, you know? So now we never talk about race. Now we never talk about offenses. Now we never talk about sin.
Speaker 2:No, racism isn't our biggest problem though, and so, as we are reconciled into the family of God, I understand that I am no longer separated from someone because of an artificial distinction like race. Paul says it, we see it. We see it in Colossians when we come into the family of God, we are brothers and sisters. So I do personally believe that racial reconciliation for the believer is the wrong goal. Racial reconciliation happens when people come into Christ. It happens authentically.
Speaker 2:The question is well, what is the goal for the believer? To me, the goal for the believer would be to maintain the unity that has been given to us. That's Ephesians 4. Jesus prays for us in John 17 that we would be one. In Ephesians four, paul tells us to maintain the unity that we've been given. We see in John that we've been given the power of the Holy Spirit John 17, and that is the unifying force. That is what brings us together. And now, how do we maintain it? Well, in Ephesians 4, paul lays out, especially in the second half of Ephesians 4, paul lays out all the ways in which you keep the unity.
Speaker 2:The idea is never seen in the New Testament that one of the ways we keep the unity is by, you know, one group doing work that another group doesn't have to do so. With racial reconciliation, many white people need to acknowledge their complicity in racism or repent for their racism. And you know, do all of these steps, read all these books, you know. And black people, we come to the table and you know, I have a different set of work. That isn't how the scriptures work, that isn't how you know, we don't, we don't see a model for that. So racial reconciliation, again, just I think, is completely the wrong goal for Christians. I believe that we are reconciled. We see that in the scriptures. Now how do we pursue the unity?
Speaker 1:Right, and now that's what you're talking about biblical unity as far as versus reconciliation yes, yeah, and thank you for that distinction.
Speaker 2:Biblical unity how do we keep our biblical unity, our unity where Christ is the foundation, where the word of God is our foundation, as opposed to the culture's idea of unity that is changing, shifting. We can be unified on this today, but then tomorrow that might change. We live and we believe on a word that is unchanging and we serve a God who is unchanging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's helpful. You know when we're looking, if we look at other people around us and where we have to please people. You know we have to do certain groups have to do this work. We're never satisfied. You know, as human beings, we always want more of people to do more for us, or oh, you didn't do enough. You know you people to do more for us, or oh, you didn't do enough. You know you need to. You need to do more work and that leads to like a spiral workspace. You know, you never know how much is enough to get to that point where people will say, yes, that's enough. It's just an endless cycle. So I think it's better. You know, when you're looking at biblical unity, you have that framework in the Bible. God tells us to it, so you don't have to wonder like, is it enough? You know exactly what you need to do.
Speaker 2:Yes, very well said. What you're saying actually makes me think of James Cone. He is the originator or father of Black liberation theology, and one of the things that he puts forward is this idea that, in order for us to be unified, white people need to do all of this work, and then Black people actually need to approve of the work. And so, let's say, we're in a church community and it's white and Black. Well, all of the Black people need to approve of the white people, and if all of the Black people in the community don't approve of all of the white people, then they're not approved of.
Speaker 2:But we don't see God participating with us like that. That isn't how the Lord participates with us. Where you have to do all of these things before I will, you know, approve of you, and then you know, if you don't do all of these things, then you know all of these, all of these man-made things that are continuously shifting. I do believe that you have to worship the correct God, correctly, but you know he doesn't. He doesn't set up all of these um movable goalposts for us, and and then you know, see how far we can jump and how many hoops we're willing to go through, and you know all of these things, and then and then maybe we can be approved by him yeah, I read that book combs.
Speaker 1:I forget the name of it.
Speaker 2:There's a hard black liberation theology.
Speaker 1:That one yeah, I did read that one, and that was. That was hard to me. Even for even for me as a black person, that was very hard to believe. Yes, there's so many things you have to do to to be right I'm not sure if I'm saying it to be right, but you know, just to be accepted by a particular race of people, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's basically it. Like he puts forward an idea that, in order for a certain group of people to be considered right or good, then you know, these are the things that must be done. But what do I have to do to be considered right or good? Am I just right or good because I'm Black? That you know. That just lets me off, like in one of his books, and I don't think it's Black Liberation Theology, I think it's, oh, black Power.
Speaker 2:He has one called Black Theology and Black Power, something similar. I'm probably messing up the name, but he talks about the fact that, um, you know, white people can never tell black people about their sin. And if a white person sees that I'm in sin and wants to come and tell me that, hey, you might want to watch out. You're in sin. Your soul is, you know, potentially on the road to hell. Why would I care what color you are? What does it matter? We never see any stipulation in scripture that says you know, gentiles, you can never tell the Jews about their sin, right, yeah, scythians you can never tell the jews about their sin right, yeah, scythians, you can never tell the greeks about their sin.
Speaker 2:Those, those distinctions aren't created in scripture. That's a form of partiality. Right, we see that if you see your brother sinning, tell him. Didn't say if you see your white brother sinning, or if you see your hispanic brother sinning, black person, go tell him right, yeah, and that's what racism is basically.
Speaker 1:You know, partiality according to you know biblical standards, yeah, reality. So we see that in mr james right yeah, james too yeah, oh yeah, all right. So let's talk about how to kind of like have conversations with people who have, you know, ideologies as far as critical race theory, wokeness, you know, white fragility, and before we get into that first, and kind of like give a broad overview of what is critical race theory.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm actually going to read a definition from critical race theory and introduction um by Richard Delgado and Jane Stefancich. It's a um uh like entry-level college book for me to read too.
Speaker 2:Right, um, but it it's really good because it's very short. Um, it's definitely a lay level book, not an academic book. Um and Jean Stefancich and um, yeah, richard Delgado and Jean Stefancich are husband and wife and they have been in the critical race theory space since the very beginning. They were actually at the initial meeting, the first meeting where critical race theory actually became a theory, where the phrase or the name was coined by Kimberly Crenshaw and Mari Matsuda. They were part of the original group in like 1989, 87 or 89. But it says the critical race theory movement is a collection of activists and scholars engaged in studying and transforming the relationship among race, racism and power. So what is critical race theory? Critical race theory is a movement and it is meant. This movement is meant to transform the relationship between race, racism and power.
Speaker 2:Critical theory itself, but just looking at critical race theory is extremely concerned about power dynamics. Who holds the power? And looking at the structures of power, how do we either A take power from the dominant group those with the power to be able to disperse it to the larger crowd, or how do we have a conversation of overturning the oppressors? How do the oppressed overturn the oppressors? But this is all in relation to race. So how do we look at power dynamics based on race? How do we eradicate a lot of the power structures based on race?
Speaker 2:And so this is where you can see some of the Marxist ideology, just not applied directly to economics, but looking at it from the standpoint of race. So at one point in history we were looking at the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, and how come the working class never overthrew, when they had the opportunity, the ruling class? They had the opportunity, the ruling class, and many people would say that there was a way of thinking that had been ingrained in the working class that allowed them to continue to participate with their oppressors in a way that was not beneficial to them. I believe many critical race theorists would say the same that the oppressed classes participate in ways or norms that are just ingrained with us within society without overturning the society itself. Partially because we probably ignorantly see this as something that is to our benefit to a degree. But critical race theory is committed to the overturning, the transforming of race, racism and power.
Speaker 1:So how do you, how will we have like respectful conversations to with people who you know have this mindset and we want to kind of steer them toward you know what the Bible says, but without you know, beating the Bible over their heads?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would definitely say that it takes a lot of patience. I know my ministry partner, krista, would say she had to have a lot of patience with me. You know, because I held to what I held and I was firmly, you know, very planted in what I believed. So it takes a lot of patience. It also takes a lot of questions. Ask questions and you know what I would even say before any of that, have a biblical worldview. Know what you believe. Know what the Bible says, not just what you think, not just what you hope, not just what you've heard. Know what the Bible says for yourself, because a critical race theorist can also, you know, want to uphold Christianity or say they uphold Christianity and, you know, have a strong belief in Jesus as well. There's just something in the worldview that's a little different. So for me, opposing critical race theory, I automatically saw all white people as being oppressive, being the oppressor, but we don't see that in scripture. We see individual heart attitudes that can lead someone to participate in impartiality. So know the word of God for yourself, do not just lean on somebody else's understanding of the word. Then I would say, understand some of the framework of the theory that you are talking about. So, if it's critical race theory, understand what are some of the arguments of critical race theorists. Not every argument of a critical race theorist needs to be tossed out. Some of those things need to be looked into and you can have conversations about that. Understand the place where Christianity and critical race theory overlap. So I started out earlier by saying you know, I also believe that race is a social construct. That's a point of conversation where you can say yes, I also agree with this. But then you can ask a question based on another tenet of critical race theory that you may not agree with, and you can, you know, ask questions and have conversation from there. I would say be in it for the long haul. I would say, be in it for the long haul. You don't have to go into a conversation with someone and just at that moment say this person is going to hear me today and they're just going to change their mind. That probably isn't going to happen. What is more likely to happen is that if you're patient and gracious in your conversation, then you can win the next conversation. It doesn't always have to be about winning this big war.
Speaker 2:You know we read in um in first Peter, I want to say it may be first, peter three, where we should be able to give an answer with gentleness and respect for the hope that we have. Can you do that? That doesn't mean you have to be a punk and you have to like just roll over and let people you know talk to you any kind of way or say whatever they're going to say, and it also doesn't mean that you have to water down the word of God. The word of God is the word of God and the word of God will stand on its own. The Lord will use you to be able to communicate his word to someone, and we do that with gentleness and respect. And I can also say that in gentleness and respect in my answer, I will speak boldly, with confidence and with courage, and so we don't need to exchange confidence and courage for gentleness and respect. The two can live together. But, yes, know the word of God.
Speaker 2:God understand what the social theory you're going to be talking about, whether it's queer theory, feminist theory, critical race theory, whatever. Understand a little bit of that. You don't have to be an expert in it, but understand a little bit of it. Where are the places where there's overlap? Where are the stark discrepancies between Christianity and the social theory that you're talking about?
Speaker 2:And then, be gracious, ask questions, be willing to have the next conversation. Don't feel like you have to go in and answer all of their questions about the Bible, or that you have to have a response for everything that they bring up. You can take a time out and say, hey, look, how about we follow up with this question next week? Give yourself some time to think or to do more research, and then pray. Make sure that you are praying, because, at the end of the day, like I said, the word of God will stand on its own. You are not anybody's savior. You don't have a heaven or a hell to put anybody in. What you can do, though, is respectfully and responsibly share the word of God, the truth of the word of God, but you have to know it in order to be able to do that, so I hope that's helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's. I want to liken it to you know, witnessing to an atheist. You know if they're staunch in their belief, you know it's going to take time. You got to know the word, you got to be patient, you know you got to be gracious, like you said, and you know it just. It's just all those factors involving because you, you're not saving that person. You know god has to move their heart. So yeah, similar to you know issues on race, god has to be the one you know, to ultimately move their heart. But we're just the vessel or the person that he has is here to maybe share that word with them, to get them to think.
Speaker 2:Yes, go think, yes, yes. If you do nothing more than put a pebble in someone's shoe, you've done a lot.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and it just may be that next person, you know, that will lead them to the place that they need to be. Yes, that was very helpful. Yes, patience, yes, that's the key. All patience, yes, all right, so we're kind of wrapping up here. So what would be a Bible study tip that you could offer my audience? As far as you know, studying the Bible, understanding it better.
Speaker 2:Um, in regards to race and ethnicity, or in regards to just general? Okay, so just in general, I would say never read a Bible verse by itself. This is something that Krista, my ministry partner, shared with me at the very beginning, because I could take Micah 6.8 and run with it, and now I'm advocating for justice issues across the board, things that are actually sinful but in our current culture are considered justice issues. An example of that would be Micah 6.8, where we are encouraged to do justice. Well, in our current culture, reproductive justice is a thing. Well, reproductive justice is also another euphemism for abortion. So, in the call to do justice, abortion. So in the call to do justice, I could potentially be advocating for abortion.
Speaker 2:Um, this is why you never read just one bible verse. Read the word of god in context. In order to understand micah six, you actually need to understand what's happening in michael one, and so, looking at the book of micah in context, also understanding the time frame that Micah was set in, who were the contemporaries that wrote alongside Micah? We need to understand the word of God, not just a passage in the word of God. So I think that would be my primary encouragement to people is to read chunks of scripture, not just, you know, these two verses that can confirm what I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:There's a lot in the Bible that you might have to say wait a minute, hold on. Let me read this again, and especially because the word of God was not written to us. It was written to a specific people during a specific time, and so we get to in our 2022 context. I get to now look back into this moment in time and see what God was saying. Now, the word of God does not change, but I need to understand how the word of God was understood during that time, not how do I understand it in light of my 2022 mindset that has been impacted by things like critical theory, post-modernism, feminist theory and all of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's Micah. You said Micah 6?.
Speaker 2:Micah 6.
Speaker 1:Is that the do justice? Love, mercy and humbly.
Speaker 2:Walk humbly with your God.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's that one, and we see it everywhere. We see, you know, secular people putting that verse up and encouraging Christians. Isn't it your word that says you know you should do justice and walk humbly with your God? Well, how are you not doing justice for the woman who wants to have an abortion? Well, hold on, do you understand what the biblical term for justice actually is? So we need to look at even these words.
Speaker 2:That culture is throwing back at the church and saying this is your word, not ours. Well, true, I can acknowledge that Justice is the foundation of the Lord's throne. We see justice in his character. So, yes, but let me define it for you in the right context. I am not going to accept justice from the culture and then do that. What I'm going to do is I'm going to look to my heavenly father, who is the author and creator of all things. I'm going to look at what does he have to say about justice? How is it defined according to his principles? And I'm going to do that, and that, most often, is going to be antithetical to the culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the only way you can be discerning, you know, by reading the whole word and not just picking verses out here and there. To you know, suit what we want to what we want to say. Try to justify it.
Speaker 2:Yes, but we are good cherry pickers. I'm a good cherry picker.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think we all are. I've had that problem too. I had to learn to. What is this verse really saying? What did it say beforehand? What is this prophet trying to say? Who are they talking to?
Speaker 2:Yes, for so many years I was holding to Micah 6, 8, but I had never read Micah 6, 1. You know just six verses, seven verses, you know, know up the chapter and I had never read it. And I had definitely never read michael one one. So you know it. When you, when you look at a verse in the context of the larger book, it the verse that you're looking at may not actually be saying what you think it's saying right, yeah, a whole another different thing that you never intended to.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yeah, all right. Well, monique, this was a very helpful and interesting conversation and thank you for being on the show thanks for having me, I appreciate it all right.
Speaker 1:So I hope that conversation was helpful. As we talked about race, racial reconciliation and biblical unity, I hope you will go and check out the website Center for Biblical Unity. I will put those links in the show notes. And then also, monique and her ministry partner, krista Bontrager, have a new book out at this moment. It is called Walking in Unity Biblical Answers to Questions on Race and Racism. It is a good read so I highly recommend it for you. Like I said, those links to their ministry will be in the show notes, so go check it out and remember until next time. God is always good and he's always faithful. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Do me a favor by following the podcast and leaving a review to help spread the word. I look forward to hearing from you.
